[分析测量] 学习仿真--马兰士hdam-sa模块探究

[复制链接] 查看: 67846|回复: 96

32

主题

0

好友

3557

积分

贵宾 当前离线

来自上海的

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
8411
帖子
3221
精华
3
经验
3557 点
金钱
1884 ¥
注册时间
2006-4-5

社区贡献

 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-21 10:23 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 fsweiliang 于 2007-11-21 09:34 发表
请问Q8,Q11作用是什么?

Q8与Q7是一对mirror电流镜电路,其中Q8基极和集电极短路,所以Q8等效为一个二极管,他接受Q4传输过来的电流,并按照mirror电路的特性接近理想地把Q4的电流传输到右侧的Q7上面。(理论上三极管的放大倍数要无限大)Q7与下方的Q9是一个cascode复合管接法。
同理,下半部分的原理相同,Q11与Q10也是一对电流镜电路。
上下半臂的电流最终的去向是那个1M的负载电阻,也就是I/V负载电阻,在那个电阻上面得到需要的输出电压。

0

主题

0

好友

2857

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
29222
帖子
2737
精华
6
经验
2857 点
金钱
2785 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-21
发表于 2007-11-21 10:26 | 显示全部楼层
for a good and easy to read book on operational amplifiers, try "Op Amps for Everyone", from TI's website, application note slod006b.pdf.

Walter Jung has also an excellent book on various types of opamps.

great weekend reading.

211

主题

0

好友

3013

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

黄金圣斗士

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
29392
帖子
10040
精华
1
经验
3013 点
金钱
2891 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-25

DIY大赛获奖

发表于 2007-11-21 10:45 | 显示全部楼层
Q8不要,就cascode电路即可,有什么大的区别?

32

主题

0

好友

3557

积分

贵宾 当前离线

来自上海的

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
8411
帖子
3221
精华
3
经验
3557 点
金钱
1884 ¥
注册时间
2006-4-5

社区贡献

 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-21 11:27 | 显示全部楼层
翻译下19楼:
部分的电流反馈形式的放大器在反相输入端都有非常低的输入阻抗。反相端通常都是输入对管的发射极。参考下JLH1969,典型的输入阻抗是小于50欧姆的。
而同相端的输入阻抗,一般都是从输入对管的基极看进去的,典型的可以达到100K甚至M欧姆的级别。
但是,现在也有例外的。
举个 ths4001 的例子。他是个高速电压反馈型的放大器而看上去却极象个电流型放大器。其中间放大部分(红线圈的)是个典型的共集电压放大形式而不是被一个电流传输模式的增益级所取代,与你所见到的电流反馈型放大器很相象。
这就是 ths4001转换速率有 400v/us而成为视频放大器的缘故。
反之亦然,附上ths4001的简图,你可以看见(他的增益级 )有一个对称的输入端,都是在输入对管的发射极上,分别通过他们各自的电流镜(高阻抗)然后通过恒流源(也是高阻抗)最后接地。结果,所有的输入端子的等效输入阻抗高达 10mohm!
同样,另一个放大器有一个电流传输途径,用绿色圈的,是个典型的电流反馈的放大器,最后的输出级是 diamond buffer。
这个放大器也有 400v/us的转换速率。

32

主题

0

好友

3557

积分

贵宾 当前离线

来自上海的

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
8411
帖子
3221
精华
3
经验
3557 点
金钱
1884 ¥
注册时间
2006-4-5

社区贡献

 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-21 11:35 | 显示全部楼层
20楼:
Q8 / Q11 与Q7/Q10组成一对电流镜,所以电流输出从阻抗转换放大部分传输到到输出缓冲器。
换个角度说,他们将高输出阻抗的的阻抗转换放大器部分与负载隔离(输出缓冲器,一般是低输入阻抗的),这就是阻抗匹配。

211

主题

0

好友

3013

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

黄金圣斗士

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
29392
帖子
10040
精华
1
经验
3013 点
金钱
2891 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-25

DIY大赛获奖

发表于 2007-11-21 11:42 | 显示全部楼层
那该电路接成同相和缓冲器+反相输入谁更好?

32

主题

0

好友

3557

积分

贵宾 当前离线

来自上海的

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
8411
帖子
3221
精华
3
经验
3557 点
金钱
1884 ¥
注册时间
2006-4-5

社区贡献

 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-21 11:44 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 fsweiliang 于 2007-11-21 09:32 发表
如果是同相输入,可以取消运放的缓冲吧。没必要一定要反相

要实现你的愿望,在电流转化级后面必须要有buffer转换阻抗!然后才可以施加环路反馈。比如功放的电流输出级其实就是一个典型的buffer,因此,你的想法在功放上面是可行的。
我的仿真软件有限制,所以你有兴趣我晚上可以仿真下给你看。

135

主题

6

好友

3846

积分

贵宾 当前在线

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
176
帖子
3379
精华
12
经验
3846 点
金钱
2486 ¥
注册时间
2004-3-26

社区贡献 优秀设计

发表于 2007-11-21 11:48 | 显示全部楼层
快速运方我认为有两种形式,
一种就是电流反馈形式,但因其两个输入端不对称,不好完全替代电压运放,所以出来LM6172 LT1361等改进型,内部电路如下
LT1361.png
电路原理:
  The LT1361/LT1362 circuit topology is a true voltage feedback amplifier that has the slewing behavior of a current feedback amplifier. The operation of the circuit can be understood by referring to the simplified schematic.  The inputs are buffered by complementary NPN and PNP emitter followers which drive a 500W resistor. The input voltage appears across the resistor generating currents which are mirrored into the high impedance node. Complementary
followers form an output stage which buffers the gain node from the load. The bandwidth is set by the input resistor and the capacitance on the high impedance node.
  The slew rate is determined by the current available to charge the gain node capacitance. This current is the differential input voltage divided by R1, so the slew rate is proportional to the input. Highest slew rates are therefore seen in the lowest gain configurations. For example, a 10V output step in a gain of 10 has only a 1V input step,whereas the same output step in unity gain has a 10 times greater input step. The curve of Slew Rate vs Input Level illustrates this relationship. The LT1361/LT1362 are tested for slew rate in a gain of –2 so higher slew rates can be expected in gains of 1 and –1, and lower slew rates in higher gain configurations.
  The RC network across the output stage is bootstrapped when the amplifier is driving a light or moderate load and has no effect under normal operation. When driving a capacitive load (or a low value resistive load) the network is incompletely bootstrapped and adds to the compensation at the high impedance node. The added capacitance slows down the amplifier which improves the phase margin by moving the unity-gain frequency away from the pole formed by the output impedance and the capacitive load. The zero created by the RC combination adds phase to ensure that even for very large load capacitances, the total phase lag can never exceed 180 degrees (zero phase margin) and the amplifier remains stable.

  还有一种就是仍然是差分电压放大,但采用加大差分的射极电阻(例如LM318 NE592等早期使用)、采用折叠沃尔曼电路(LM6341)来获得高性能,对于这种电路结构来说,虽然用到电流镜,但并不能算入电流反馈CFB的模式,下面是LM6341内部电路
LM6341.png
国半文档描述如下:
  The LM6361/LM6364/LM6365 family of op amps are wide-bandwidth monolithic amplifiers which offer improved speed and stability over many other op amps, at low cost,with little-to-no penalty in power supply consumption.
  These advantages are due to a new process, developed by National Semiconductor, which provides lateral PNP transistors with nearly the gain and speed characteristic of NPN transistors—while the NPNs maintain their usual high performance. This allows the use of both NPN and PNP transistors in the signal path, where previously the PNP transistors severely limited the speed of linear devices. (Standard lateral PNPs have 1/10th the gain and 1/200th the bandwidth of standard NPN transistors.)
  Traditional high-speed op amps often either used all-NPN circuitry (which usually severely limits the input, output, and power supply voltage ranges); used feed-forward techniques (which reduce stability); or resorted to costly hybrid design. Amplifiers made from this new process (dubbed VIP, for “Vertically-Integrated PNP”) operate from a 5V to 30V (total) supply voltage, and have standard input and output voltage ranges. In addition, they require comparatively little supply current, and are available in standard 8-pin dual-in-line packages.
  The first devices produced with this process are three op amps—each with the same basic design but compensated to different degrees. The schematic of the unity-gain-stable LM6361 (see Figure 1) has a simple but effective form. The VIP transistors can now be used in the signal path, so a fairly traditional NPN differential input stage can be followed by a folded cascode wide-bandwidth gain stage. The input stage uses emitter-degeneration resistors to reduce its transconductance (Gm). The bandwidth of the amplifiers is then set by the ratio of Gm to compensation capacitance. This also determines the stability of the amplifier.
  The compensation capacitance is stray capacitance (about 0.5 pF) which is seen lumped together at the front of the output stage. This output stage has a classic AB design, but since it contains a VIP transistor it has the speed necessary for a high speed amplifier. Additional capacitance on the
output effectively increases the total compensation capacitance, increasing the stability of the amplifier but also reducing the bandwidth. This “compensation” is not ideal, however, so transient response may be degraded.
  The step response (Figure 2) demonstrates the stability of the LM6361. The amplifier was set up as a unity-gain follower,with a 6V input step. The output has a small overshoot and settles quickly to its final value. This well-behaved response is due to the simplicity of the compensation, which can be seen in the frequency response (Figure 3). It shows a smooth one-pole rolloff beyond 50 MHz; where the gain has dropped to unity, with a phase margin of 45°; the next pole is introduced after 100 MHz.
  The LM6364 and LM6365 are based on the LM6361 design. The LM6361’s 600Ω emitter degeneration resistors are reduced to 150Ω in the 6364 to produce an op amp with gain-bandwidth product of 175 MHz, stable to a minimum gain of 5. In the 6365 the resistors are eliminated altogether,
for a GBW of 725 MHz and minimum gain of 25. All three devices have slew rates guaranteed (and 100% tested) to be over 200 V/μs (the slew rates are typically 300 V/μs).
  Since the emitter degeneration resistors contribute to offset voltage and input voltage noise, the device with the widest bandwidth also has the best DC specs. The high gain of the transistors used in the common design, combined with the configuration used, give these op amps their high speed without consuming a lot of power. Supply current is guaranteed to be less than 6.8 mA (with ±15V supplies) for each of the three devices.

32

主题

0

好友

3557

积分

贵宾 当前离线

来自上海的

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
8411
帖子
3221
精华
3
经验
3557 点
金钱
1884 ¥
注册时间
2006-4-5

社区贡献

 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-21 11:48 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 fsweiliang 于 2007-11-21 11:42 发表
那该电路接成同相和缓冲器+反相输入谁更好?

刚才millwood的翻译你应该看了,其实无所谓同相输入或者反相输入,那个反相端的buffer的作用其实是为了让同相输入端和反相输入端的输入阻抗尽量匹配而已

211

主题

0

好友

3013

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

黄金圣斗士

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
29392
帖子
10040
精华
1
经验
3013 点
金钱
2891 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-25

DIY大赛获奖

发表于 2007-11-21 12:06 | 显示全部楼层
此模块和5-6年前的金嗓子电压增益模块部分非常想象,只是小了镜像电路,相位不是同相而已,还有什么更细微的区别吗?

19

主题

0

好友

2850

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

曾经被狗咬

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
15214
帖子
2716
精华
0
经验
2850 点
金钱
2574 ¥
注册时间
2006-11-26

社区贡献 乐于助人

发表于 2007-11-21 12:13 | 显示全部楼层
仿真我不懂。不过从3楼的图倒是可很容易地看出来反相输入端到输出端的电流放大系数为1,所以“没有了负输入端的缓冲器后,连基本的放大倍数也无法满足”也就不奇怪了。
从正相输入是有很高的电流放大系数的。

3

主题

1

好友

1213

积分

侠之大者 当前离线

皇室家园装饰

Rank: 6Rank: 6

UID
29117
帖子
1442
精华
0
经验
1213 点
金钱
1206 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-19
发表于 2007-11-22 18:07 | 显示全部楼层
好贴 学习

0

主题

0

好友

2857

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
29222
帖子
2737
精华
6
经验
2857 点
金钱
2785 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-21
发表于 2007-11-22 20:02 | 显示全部楼层
lt1361 is simply a typical CFB opamp with a built-in buffer on the inverting input.

the entire circuit has three diamond buffers (kind of), all highlighted in green.

the left most buffer is to impedance match the low input impedance of the inverting input termianl.

the 2nd buffer is on the positive input end, quite typical of a CFB amp.

the last buffer is on the output. essentially a current amplifier.

the one in the middle, highlighted in green, is the I/V amplifier (transimpedance).

so this amp is no different from biglee's idea to use a tl072 to buffer the inverting input.

the Marantz alternative is similar to the ad815 datasheet and using two CFB amp configured in a differential output fashion so that the "inverting input" end of the amplifier is buffered by the amplifier on the bottom.
lt1361.GIF
ad815.GIF

0

主题

0

好友

2857

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
29222
帖子
2737
精华
6
经验
2857 点
金钱
2785 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-21
发表于 2007-11-22 20:11 | 显示全部楼层
the national chip uses the basic VFB topology, with a differential pair upfront, and a buffer on the output.

however, it doesn't have the traditional VAS (voltage amplification stage) of a VFB. Instead, it uses T1 and T2/T3 to for a current transmission line and the constant current source to current drive the output buffer.

as you can tell, its signal path for the positive cycle consists of T1 but on the negative cycle consists of T2 and T3. As such, there is a little bit of imbalance. another source of imbalance comes from Vce on T1 (about V+), and the Vce on T2 is about 2*V+.

In comparison, the ths3001 is a better topology in my view.
lm6361.GIF

32

主题

0

好友

3557

积分

贵宾 当前离线

来自上海的

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
8411
帖子
3221
精华
3
经验
3557 点
金钱
1884 ¥
注册时间
2006-4-5

社区贡献

 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-22 21:21 | 显示全部楼层
millwood,上面的运放的同相端和反相端说反了

32

主题

0

好友

3557

积分

贵宾 当前离线

来自上海的

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
8411
帖子
3221
精华
3
经验
3557 点
金钱
1884 ¥
注册时间
2006-4-5

社区贡献

 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-22 21:26 | 显示全部楼层
是的,maranz的电路其实就是运放LT1361的翻版啊

0

主题

0

好友

2857

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
29222
帖子
2737
精华
6
经验
2857 点
金钱
2785 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-21
发表于 2007-11-22 21:48 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 Biglee_163 于 2007-11-22 21:21 发表
millwood,上面的运放的同相端和反相端说反了


which one?

0

主题

0

好友

2857

积分

罗宾汉 当前离线

Rank: 7Rank: 7Rank: 7

UID
29222
帖子
2737
精华
6
经验
2857 点
金钱
2785 ¥
注册时间
2007-10-21
发表于 2007-11-22 21:59 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 Biglee_163 于 2007-11-22 21:26 发表
是的,maranz的电路其实就是运放LT1361的翻版啊


yeah. very few innovative toplogies by now.

32

主题

0

好友

3557

积分

贵宾 当前离线

来自上海的

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
8411
帖子
3221
精华
3
经验
3557 点
金钱
1884 ¥
注册时间
2006-4-5

社区贡献

 楼主| 发表于 2007-11-22 22:05 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 millwood 于 2007-11-22 20:11 发表
the national chip uses the basic VFB topology, with a differential pair upfront, and a buffer on the output.

however, it doesn't have the traditional VAS (voltage amplification stage) of a VFB ...

这段有错,运放Pin2==负,Pin3==正,Pin6输出

118

主题

2

好友

2664

积分

贵宾 当前离线

Rank: 3Rank: 3

UID
6118
帖子
2429
精华
0
经验
2664 点
金钱
2030 ¥
注册时间
2005-10-31

社区贡献

发表于 2007-11-22 22:07 | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 millwood 于 2007-11-21 10:26 发表
for a good and easy to read book on operational amplifiers, try "Op Amps for Everyone", from TI's website, application note slod006b.pdf.

Walter Jung has also an excellent book on various type ...

一直想找Walter Jung 的书,就是找不到可供下载的电子版,google出来的waltjung.org网站也打不开,你手上有没有他的书让我们分享一下?
您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 注册

本版积分规则

Powered by Discuz! X3.4

© 2001-2012 Comsenz Inc.

返回顶部